tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post7987148196225423954..comments2023-10-31T14:44:05.872+00:00Comments on Not the same stream: How to mount a successful coup in AnglicanismPaul Bagshawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17694279608748668806noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-1063596609664435492021-08-17T15:57:23.651+01:002021-08-17T15:57:23.651+01:00It’s appropriate time to make some plans for the f...It’s appropriate time to make some plans for the future and it is time to be happy. I have read this post and if I could I wish to suggest you few interesting things or advice. Perhaps you could write next articles referring to this article. I desire to read even more things about it! <a href="https://www.iptvservicepro.com/skrn-stream/" rel="nofollow">SKRN</a><br />Aexandra Daddariohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16288604070155908165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-32764039047594574242010-10-29T01:48:26.662+01:002010-10-29T01:48:26.662+01:00When Hilary Clinton spoke of a vast right-wing con...When Hilary Clinton spoke of a vast right-wing conspiracy, she was labeled paranoid, but a good many of the same people and organizations, who tried to bring down Bill Clinton, now fund the breakaways from TEC. It's quite true that their tentacles reach as far as Africa to meddle in Anglican matters over there.<br /><br />And the Tea Partiers and their ilk are not grass roots organizations. They're what we call astroturfers, phony grass roots groups, funded by wealthy right-wing individuals and organizations<br /><br />Murdoch is right on the money. And we probably both sound paranoid, too. :-)June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-4912859127610701422010-10-29T01:06:21.510+01:002010-10-29T01:06:21.510+01:00The point was, the American money is fueling the c...The point was, the American money is fueling the conflict within the TEC, as well as in mainstream protestantism generally. The people who want to rule, using Fundamentalism as an organizing principle and weapon against the liberals, are out to suppress any hint of the social gospel -- concern for widows, orphans, or neighbors. Their gospel is all about kingdom, power, and glory. They've had an effect in the USA, but have used investments in Africa to really put the pressure on Anglicans, with their international pretensions.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-85114144313988923072010-10-28T22:09:23.506+01:002010-10-28T22:09:23.506+01:00Grandmère Mimi,
Perhaps I use 'TEC' impre...Grandmère Mimi,<br /><br />Perhaps I use 'TEC' imprecisely. <br /><br />Unhappiness: Pittsburgh, Forth Worth, court cases over property, the level of vitriol on some of the conservative blogs. Not forgetting Bishop Pike.<br /><br />But I accept that this is a view of the US through the headlines (whether of blogland or other media) and that daily reality is much more, well, ordinary.<br /><br />And, thank you Murdoch Matthew, there is always the consciousness of American money fuelling disputes in areas (not least central Africa) well outside the ostensible field of conflict.<br /><br />But to lump all these together as TEC, explicitly or by implication, is too casual and I apologise.<br /><br />On the other hand I entirely accept the charge of hypocrisy when levelled against the CofE. (And in the earlier blogs 'Incompatible with the Covenant' explore why it won't be possible to use the Covenant against the UK on this charge.) <br /><br />But I don't think the root is civility. I think (previous post) that self-deception, sometimes knowing self-deception, is built into the fabric of the CofE.<br /><br />This does raise the question about the Covenant which Kearon raised in relation to Canada: what is the relationship between the Provincial decision makers and the actions of subordinate bodies? This uncertainty means that Sydney Diocese will not be sanctionable under the Covenant or, conversely, that the mechanisms of the Covenant will reach right down to the actions of a parish.Paul Bagshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17694279608748668806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-68010173343935417452010-10-28T19:20:52.767+01:002010-10-28T19:20:52.767+01:00You can't understand the current conflicts wit...You can't understand the current conflicts without taking account of the machinations of the Institute for Religion and Democracy, funded by California billionaires, and the C Street crowd of Dominionists funded by people like the Koch brothers. This isn't an interchurch dispute like Calvinists vs Anglocatholics. It's fueled and directed as part of a political agenda. See the work of Jim Naughton done for the Diocese of Washington, and comparable U.S. Methodist analyses. As you say, homosexuality is the presenting issue, one usefully divisive, but the drive is coming from rich people working to either co-opt or neutralize the social influence of the churches. Treating this like a family dispute, or even like an honest difference of beliefs, is to let the powerbrokers continue to operate off the radar.Murdoch Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10584498192562407670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-65358749493792153652010-10-28T17:29:19.432+01:002010-10-28T17:29:19.432+01:00PS: Thank you for your thoughtful response, Paul.PS: Thank you for your thoughtful response, Paul.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-29373372743723962772010-10-28T17:27:25.662+01:002010-10-28T17:27:25.662+01:00Paul, despite the fact, as it seems to me, that TE...Paul, despite the fact, as it seems to me, that TEC has been careful not to meddle in the affairs of other churches in the Communion, the reality is that our church suffers from guilt by association simply because we are the Anglican face in the US, a country with great influence around the world and a country which is not above throwing its weight around. <br /><br />It is interesting to get an honest view of ourselves from an outsider. I believe we do not see our church as quite so unhappy as you. It's business as usual in most parishes, except for the concern over falling membership and attendance.<br /><br />A good many of us in TEC see the Church of England sweeping their conflicts under the carpet in the name of civility, whereas we prefer having our conflicts on the table and open for discussion, even contentious discussion.<br /><br />We see Rowan as preferring and promoting hypocrisy rather than openness and honesty, which we find quite difficult to understand. And when he attempts to instruct our bishops on how to run a church, we view him as meddlesome.<br /><br />I'm sorry if I took the comment thread somewhat off topic.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-63277176414459541022010-10-28T07:42:03.108+01:002010-10-28T07:42:03.108+01:00Grandmère Mimi,
This is a complicated issue to wh...Grandmère Mimi,<br /><br />This is a complicated issue to which the only simple answer I have is: Yes and No.<br /><br />If any factor in the way things were was different then different outcomes are conceivable.<br /><br />I suggest that conflict is normal and the particular foci of a conflict is, strictly speaking, accidental.<br /><br />Certainly the US's influence is very strong (economy, communications, foreign power, too many people convinced they know what's best for others) and TEC shares this in the Anglican sphere.<br /><br />But if the US's culture wars had not included sexuality in its battlegrounds I doubt homosexuality would have been the occasion for conflict in the global church.<br /><br />The UK (as each distinct body within the Church) has a particular history and is influenced by developments elsewhere. Perhaps homosexuality would still have been a battleground here - but without the US's influence I doubt it would have achieved such traction.<br /><br />The central issue in Britain for many of the most conservative was post-modernism. Many liberals did not get this for a decade or more. Homosexuality was a tactical choice for the wider - cultural - battle.<br /><br />I date this from the mid-1980s. Lyotard's <i>The Postmodern Condition</i> was published in French in 1979 and English in 1984.<br /><br />So: Yes there would probably have been conflict in Anglicanism whatever TEC did and, if TEC was not so divided and unhappy (as I see it from the UK), then NO: the course of events would have been different.Paul Bagshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17694279608748668806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-59994673996893463212010-10-27T00:18:44.229+01:002010-10-27T00:18:44.229+01:00That took my breath away.
Thank you, I needed tha...That took my breath away.<br /><br />Thank you, I needed that,<br /><br />LenLeonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5108550303571033600.post-84116083164301125492010-10-26T20:11:38.484+01:002010-10-26T20:11:38.484+01:00Well done, Paul.
I find your first and second p...Well done, Paul. <br /><br />I find your first and second points, especially, quite enlightening.<br /><br />In your first point you say:<br /><br /><i>It is the exporting of the US Episcopal Church's divided and unhappy history across the globe, and about where the centre of the Anglican world really lies and should lie.</i><br /><br />Without the export of TEC's "divided and unhappy history", do you believe that the different expressions of the faith within the Church of England would have come into conflict over homosexuality?June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com